Curse

Life Bringing · Mar 28, 2010, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

As for the ER Ele being too much defense; well there are times when the two monk henchmen simply do not suffice and you want the large energy pool and returns that ER gives to churn out much needed prots.

Tell Jeydra that

. Jeydra did Duncan with 1 healer hench, kaolai, and spirit light. Oh, and standard prots on an MM.

Xenomortis · Mar 28, 2010, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Tell Jeydra that

. Jeydra did Duncan with 1 healer hench, kaolai, and spirit light. Oh, and standard prots on an MM.

I did consider that when writing my previous post. Although I don't recall that particular case, I know Jeydra's done Slaver's stuff (Forgewight) with 2 monk backlines without running ER (did have some strong defensive stuff on the midline).
Jeydra however is considerably skilled at H/Hing with an Ele primary and by microing and pulling mobs properly can get by without a dedicated defense hero.

If JDRyder can replicate such achievements using the 2 healer monks with only medium support from the heroes (let's keep it caster primary on the human, because SY is insane defense and "oversurvivability") then I'll fold.

Life Bringing · Mar 29, 2010, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I did consider that when writing my previous post. Although I don't recall that particular case, I know Jeydra's done Slaver's stuff (Forgewight) with 2 monk backlines without running ER (did have some strong defensive stuff on the midline).
Jeydra however is considerably skilled at H/Hing with an Ele primary and by microing and pulling mobs properly can get by without a dedicated defense hero.

If JDRyder can replicate such achievements using the 2 healer monks with only medium support from the heroes (let's keep it caster primary on the human, because SY is insane defense and "oversurvivability") then I'll fold.

You probably don't recall it because it was done 2-3 days ago. I explained the duncan glitch and he went to try it lol. You might also want to check out EFGJack's screens on the h/h time trial contest. Lots of incredible times without an ER, and, iirc, most didnt use sy either.

Xenomortis · Mar 29, 2010, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

You probably don't recall it because it was done 2-3 days ago. I explained the duncan glitch and he went to try it lol. You might also want to check out EFGJack's screens on the h/h time trial contest. Lots of incredible times without an ER, and, iirc, most didnt use sy either.

This one? http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5026/forge31.jpg
That's pretty much the only one what matches your description (I did subscribe to that thread, just never posted).
4 defensive characters. The damage the heroes do is marginal - a couple of copies of RoJ and Mark of Pain (the biggest damage dealer with the player build).

EFGJack · Mar 29, 2010, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

This one? http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5026/forge31.jpg
That's pretty much the only one what matches your description (I did subscribe to that thread, just never posted).
4 defensive characters. The damage the heroes do is marginal - a couple of copies of RoJ and Mark of Pain (the biggest damage dealer with the player build).

Going off topic here-- the heroes are not supposed to do omfgwtfpwndamage. The point of the build is to AEburst groups down before the scatter-script triggers, and the two copies of ROJ fit in well with this goal in mind.

HigherMinion · Mar 29, 2010, 01:52 PM // 13:52

If what you are trying to do is compare one ER hero to one Discord hero with heals. If you're running Discord then you will die a fatal death against tough mobs if you either don't run prots, or your hero runs out of energy/is busy casting discord and other offensive skills.

If you run one ER hero, you are going to be receiving reliable heals constantly through big fights, with massive spike-heals and, most importantly, Protective Spirit.

But what you *can't* argue is that 3 discord heroes>three ER heroes. This is absurd.

Xenomortis · Mar 29, 2010, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Fold .

JDRyder · Mar 29, 2010, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

What damage? Ele damage?
No, I want solid defense and Wards require me to stand in one spot and eat the AoE for the full duration.

No you only have to be in the wards when being hit :/ I also take Ward against ele depending on the area. The builds I've been using are

Sandstorm, Ebon Hawk, Stoning, Maelstrom, Ward against melee, Earth attunment, GoLE, Hard rez.

Sandstorm, Ebon Hawk, Stoning, blurred vision, Ward against melee, Earth attunment, GoLE, Hard rez.

and for the 3rd I take whatever I feel is needed. For example MB maybe even a MM, which helps as well

JimmyTyme · Apr 10, 2010, 07:05 PM // 19:05

SoLS healers on pvx wiki are amazing 2 of them can heal a group in HM with ease MUCH better than an E/mo ER proter soo n/rt is best IMO

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 10, 2010, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyTyme

SoLS healers on pvx wiki are amazing 2 of them can heal a group in HM with ease MUCH better than an E/mo ER proter soo n/rt is best IMO

So your argument is that 2 n/rt healers are better than 1 er hero?

HigherMinion · Apr 10, 2010, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

So your argument is that 2 n/rt healers are better than 1 er hero?

His argument is nothing; he hasn't explained WHY. So you can forget about that post until edit.

JimmyTyme · Apr 11, 2010, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

So your argument is that 2 n/rt healers are better than 1 er hero?

again you arrogant bastard, NO er protters suck is my arguement and n/rt healers are awesome even in a 1 on 1 comparison, but 2 of them can heal a group of 8 in high-end HM areas, also SoLS healers tend to have roughly unlimited energy and with ritualist skills they tend to heal far more, not to mention they don't use enchantments which in alot of situations are stripped rapidly and very often multiple enchantments at once and they have better condition control

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 11, 2010, 04:40 AM // 04:40

I'm guessing Mallyx is the only place you pve since apparently enchantments are useless.

Also, you can bring condition removal on ER heroes.

JimmyTyme · Apr 11, 2010, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

I'm guessing Mallyx is the only place you pve since apparently enchantments are useless.

Also, you can bring condition removal on ER heroes.

mallyx isn't the only area with enchantment removal not to mention a good majority of the ER protter is made for extreme pressure on a single target (or low amount of allies) as opposed to the comparatively minor party-wide damage that's oh soo common amongst groups in pve

Dusk_ · Apr 11, 2010, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyTyme

mallyx isn't the only area with enchantment removal not to mention a good majority of the ER protter is made for extreme pressure on a single target (or low amount of allies) as opposed to the comparatively minor party-wide damage that's oh soo common amongst groups in pve

Apparently you don't play Hard Mode then, because party healing is crap for actually surviving anything, and every mob you fight is capable of dealing out extreme pressure.

ER spams Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond. Prot has a 5 second recharge, Spirit Bond has a 2 second. That means in the time it takes your amazing party heals to go off (PwK with 25 second recharge, Life with 20 second activation time), an ER Hero has stunted any damage on 3-5 allies and still has maxed out energy.

What's actually hilarious is that a N/Rt can't do anything better than an E/Rt. ER is better energy management, better self-heal, and will let your hero use better spells. The only reason Monk is used over Ritualist is because when the energy is infinite, Monk spells are simply better.

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 11, 2010, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyTyme

mallyx isn't the only area with enchantment removal not to mention a good majority of the ER protter is made for extreme pressure on a single target (or low amount of allies) as opposed to the comparatively minor party-wide damage that's oh soo common amongst groups in pve

Name the areas besides Mallyx, where an ER hero is shutdown by enchant removal.

I'll save you the time, the list is very, very small.

Life Bringing · Apr 11, 2010, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

Apparently you don't play Hard Mode then, because party healing is crap for actually surviving anything, and every mob you fight is capable of dealing out extreme pressure.

Lol, so wrong. Apparently you don't play HM.

The thing with an ER is that it's complete overkill in 95% of the game, and doesn't really accomplish what you'd need. Sure, it stops big damage spikes on a few chars, but if you took the time to pull properly and flag your heroes apart, you wouldn't need that. Even in the areas that may find a use for an ER, it still needs a n/rt or something similar because it lacks a strong partyheal.

The best thing about necrits is that it combines strong partyheals, with strong spot heals, with strong utility. You have Spiritlight for redbargoesup. You have PwK on insane hero reflexes to quickly recover from a hit of some random aoe, so quickly that you probably won't even notice you got hit by aoe. Then, it can pack Weakness for -66% damage, shadow of fear which screws up melee even more, and after all this, it still has it's elite.

While ERs are strong in theory, in practice they are somewhat subpar. Heroes don't preprot, so they won't really stop damage spikes unless a character is already being attacked by a different source. Even though they have these great prots available to them, they are mostly unnecessary. The major necessary prots can easily be slotted on your MM, leaving an open hero slot for more damage or utility.

Disclaimer: I am by no means saying that the ER ele is a bad build. I am simply saying that it is mostly inefficient and that there are better options for random vanqing and dungeons

Daesu · Apr 11, 2010, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

The thing with an ER is that it's complete overkill in 95% of the game, and doesn't really accomplish what you'd need. Sure, it stops big damage spikes on a few chars, but if you took the time to pull properly and flag your heroes apart, you wouldn't need that. Even in the areas that may find a use for an ER, it still needs a n/rt or something similar because it lacks a strong partyheal.

Not if you are using a physical melee character. Casters can flag then pull and let their minions move forward to take the initial brunt. Melee characters have to move forward on their own to enage the enemies, so they take the initial brunt of the damage as do the minions.

And please stop quoting Jeydra's heroes build on his caster without mentioning that he doesn't have a single melee on his team. Also with a ER, a melee character group would not have so much DP.

Quote:

While ERs are strong in theory, in practice they are somewhat subpar. Heroes don't preprot, so they won't really stop damage spikes unless a character is already being attacked by a different source. Even though they have these great prots available to them, they are mostly unnecessary. The major necessary prots can easily be slotted on your MM, leaving an open hero slot for more damage or utility.

ERs are not subpar. ERs usually focus on protection, N/Rt is a healer, so you cant say one is better than the other.

You can use heroes to preprot manually and prots are usually necessary for hm, otherwise we should be back to the prots vs healing debate. MMs are not the best place to slot a PS with their 3 seconds animate minion and 2 seconds death nova, so they may not be able to cast prots at crucial times. But for a 3-heroes team build, there is a constraint so MMs typically bring the prots.

ER is very useful especially for a melee character, being able to bring SoH as well as prots to keep the melee character alive in the toughest situation in HM.

Myotheraccount · Apr 11, 2010, 05:14 PM // 17:14

SoS rit with PwK + SoGM communing rit + AoTL MM with some basic prots > all IMO. :3

You don't need to dedicate a hero explusively to healing. Henchies are enough.

Just for discussion's sake though I say N/Rt is more versatile and better healer than E/Mo. Heroes have a very hard time using E/Mo because they often forget to stack up a few enchants and will spam Infuse when ER is down. ER also lacks strong party heals that N/Rt has.

Ruscour · Apr 18, 2010, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Bringing out Vekk to prot has been the best move I've ever made in this game. I usually play with a friend and my heals (I play a Ritual Lord resto bar), E/Mo prots and the offheals from her D/N Orders, everyone survives things!

My three favourite heroes, Livia (who could argue with those boobs), Xandra (female, Luxon, ritualist, perfect!) and Vekk (Asuras are just awesome) always roll with me now. I'm a very happy camper.